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BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2013-09-18 9:24 AM (#16802)
Subject: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
I have talked to Alan Rudolph about this and the thinking is to have the Bondurant RMC switch from VP93 to premium pump gas starting for the new Winter Season, using Chevron 91 from the station on Pinnacle Peak Road.

The obvious benefit to the club racer is cost, its a huge savings, especially when you have more than 1 kid racing, $13 a gallon vs $3.75. All of Canada has been using pump gas in their Rotax series since 2004. In the Can Am series we have been running up in the Northwest, the official fuel has been pump gas from a local station near the track. In fact, all the tracks up in the Northwest US use pump gas in their Rotax series, and all the tracks have a designated station that they are required to buy their fuel from, here is the list:

McMinnville: Texaco 2741 Northeast Highway 99W, McMinnville, Oregon
Richland: Chevron 1903 Jadwin Avenue Richland, WA 99354
Chilliwack: Chevron 45864 Yale Road West in Chilliwack, BC V2P 2M8
Spanaway (Tacoma): Chevron 17519 Pacific Ave S Spanaway, WA 98387
Spokane: Chevron 100 North Hayford Road Airway Heights, WA 99001
Boise: Chevron 10942 West State St. Star ID 83669

Rotax engines are designed to run on pump gas, they are snowmobile engines and snowmobiles run on pump gas, so stating that you will do engine damage is bunk.

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Curtis Ruth
Posted 2013-09-27 11:05 AM (#16859 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



PKRA Champion

Posts: 1070
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Location: Glendale,AZ
Although they use pump gas in Canada, other countries, and even in other states in the USA, the pump gas in Maricopa county is loaded with additives that seem to have adverse effects on the fuel systems of karting equipment. Wreaking havok on fuel tanks, lines, pumps, and carbs. Leaving residue and corrosion. I am not sure if it is the same case in the other markets listed. VP Racing fuels are less corrosive and longer lasting with less of these problems.

I am in the business of selling kart parts. Business would be good if we used pump fuel.

Fuel line replacement every month.
Fuel tank replacement every 6 months.
Carb rebuild kits monthly.

Or we can use race fuel and the components last much longer. Plus the fact that pump gas stinks.

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Bryan Casebolt
Posted 2013-09-27 2:52 PM (#16861 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


Past PKRA President; PKRA Champion

Posts: 897
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I agree with Curtis. I purchased a World Formula that had been run on pump gas. The fuel lines were all shot, the carb floats were bad, the carb had green crystals growing in it.
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george yandell
Posted 2013-09-28 5:38 AM (#16863 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season




Posts: 10
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Hello I am new to the forum and to karting but not new to power equipment having spent the last 23 years on the service and sales side of it. I agree with Curtis and Bryan on the effects of pump gas on these engines. The fuel in Phoenix wreaks havoc on small engines and if the EPA has their way its only going to get worse. In the last 3-4 years, I have seen more fuel related failures of fuel system parts then I can count. The additives and amount of ethanol in todays fuel is horrible on carb parts, fuel lines, etc. I too have seen carbs taken apart with white/green crytsals in them, which at first we thought was vandalism, you know the old sugar in gas tank trick, but no, turns out is was just bad fuel. Our friends at VP race fuels have a small engine line of premix and straight fuel marketed under the name SEF. It is a 94 octane, NO ETHANOL, with built in fuel stabilizer and a one year shelf life. It is sold in the quart, gallon, 5 gallon, and drum size. While it is not economical for the commercial landscaper to use, it is perfect for our homeowner customer base that may only use one or two gallons a year. We have seen no fuel related failures with our customers that have switched to the VP SEF fuel.
I have been successful in getting the fuel into several of our local fire departments and first responders whose small gas powered tools HAVE to start everytime they are called into action.
So in saying all this, yes I am new to karting and don't have a huge race budget, I will continue to support the use of VP fuel at $12.00 per gallon, to have the performance and piece of mind.
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2013-10-17 8:54 AM (#16948 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
I have been using pump gas in my rotax karts for practice for over a year with no problems. If you leave gas in your carb long enough yes it will gum up, but that is the case with any fuel you leave in your carb. I replace fuel line about every 6 months (it costs about $5), and I change my seals in my fuel pumps about the same time interval (the kit is about $16). The simple fact is it costs a lot less to run pump gas and it will help to keep club racing affordable which is a key factor in keeping people karting.

Alan discussed this with me yesterday and the Bondurant RMC will continue to run VP93 for the next 3 races (through the end of the year), then starting in January, the official fuel for the Bondurant RMC will be Chevron 91 pump gas from the station located at the NWC of Pinnacle Peak Road and 36th Avenue.
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Curtis Ruth
Posted 2013-10-17 6:34 PM (#16951 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



PKRA Champion

Posts: 1070
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Location: Glendale,AZ
No prob with me. The profit margins are far better on fuel tanks, lines, filters, fuel pump kits, and carb rebuild kits than they are on VP fuels. I am good with that.

Let's see if the chevron can help pkra with season end give aways at the banquet like vp has for the last number of years when asked. They are a great partner, but oh well.
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george yandell
Posted 2013-10-17 8:03 PM (#16953 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season




Posts: 10
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So if I am understanding this correctly, Rotax is the only class that will be forced to use pump gas starting in January?
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Bryan Casebolt
Posted 2013-10-17 8:43 PM (#16954 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


Past PKRA President; PKRA Champion

Posts: 897
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George, yes this only affects the Bondurant Rotax Max Challenge classes.

PKRA club series classes will continue to run VP fuel.
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george yandell
Posted 2013-10-17 9:13 PM (#16955 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season




Posts: 10
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Well that's a bummer, being as though I cannot purchase a different engine package right now, I guess I'm done racing after December. Maricopa County has the most ethanol and additives in their pump gas in the west, and If I wont run pump gas through my bikes or even my lawn equipment, I wont run it in my cart. I also don't like the idea of being regulated to buying gas from one particular station.
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Bryan Casebolt
Posted 2013-10-17 11:14 PM (#16956 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


Past PKRA President; PKRA Champion

Posts: 897
500100100100252525
George,
From the points I see you have previously competed in the TAG Masters class. TAG Masters is a PKRA club class and it is run on VP fuel and MG tires.
If you are going to continue to run in the PKRA TAG masters class you will be running VP MS98 fuel and MG HZ tires.

If you are planing on running in the Bondurant Rotax Max Challenge you will need to run pump gas and Mojo tires.
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2013-10-18 8:33 AM (#16957 - in reply to #16956)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
500100252525
Location: phoenix, az
The regulated station is something that the WF's came up with so the fuel dip will spec out the same, It's not that the station is giving the club a kick back or anything, it's just the closet station to the track.
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2013-10-18 3:01 PM (#16958 - in reply to #16957)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
500100252525
Location: phoenix, az
I'm sure I am in the minority here but I like this idea, making an affordable class even more affordable. Just cant be lazy get that fuel out of the carb after each (day) use and you'll be fine. Look i realize this takes a little out of the pockets of those selling VP, but look at it this way instead, these same racers now have some extra cash to spend on other things, probably things with better margins for you.

Maybe just maybe turns into more practice revenue for the track too. When we practice (test) we like to run race setup's to know where we truly are. Now practice isn't as expensive as it use to be. I see WIN-WIN-WIN all around for everybody.

Edited by Veerachart Murphy 2013-10-18 3:03 PM
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Mike McKinney
Posted 2013-10-20 10:01 AM (#16959 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: RE: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


PKRA Champion, AZ State TaG Masters Champion

Posts: 90
252525
Just a thought but COA runs on VP and anyone coming to race at the club races prior to our COA race might have an issue with this.

Mike
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2013-10-20 5:54 PM (#16960 - in reply to #16959)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
500100252525
Location: phoenix, az
Change doesnt take effect until beginning of the year. Board has always made concessions for large events coming in like COTA and SKUSA, COTA being non stamped tires and SKUSA allowing whites for races leading up to the event. Im sure the same concessions will ne made again this year.
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2013-10-21 10:24 AM (#16964 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
After more discussions with Alan and with other members racing rotax, we will be talking more about this in the next couple months. We are going to try and get everybody's input who races rotax at our track. There are a lot of claims out there our gas is different in AZ and more harmful than other states. I personally have tried to find information on this and can't find anything. So if you have studies or something in writing that will back up a lot of these claims, then that would be helpful.

I just find it interesting that it seams to only be kart racing engines that have this problem?? I have been riding dirtbikes my whole life, and am an active member in the Arizona Trail Riders association and we actively ride and race, and I don't know anybody who uses anything but pump gas in their dirtbikes, we all use it. I have never had a problem with pumpgas ruining anything in my engines, or carbs, or fuel lines. Like I said, the only thing I have ever seen is if I leave fuel in the carb for several months, it will gum up and I have to take the carb out and clean it. The rotax carb is almost identical to most dirt bike carbs.

Gather your evidence, and we can discuss it at the December club meeting. I plan to email all the rotax racers to get their individual input so we can make a more informed decision on what the majority wants to run on.
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george yandell
Posted 2013-10-22 3:37 PM (#16972 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season




Posts: 10
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I just find it interesting that it only seems to be one person that is for switching to pump gas for one class, Rotax. Why would it be a board decision if your only wanting Rotax to switch? I would think it would be a Rotax racer/owner decision. I can see it being a board decision if all classes were going to be switching but so far it only seems to be one individual. What would WF, shiter or senior sportsman classes say about giving up MS98 and going to pump gas?
With my business being selling and servicing power equipment, I do see the effects of ethanol in pump gas and what effect it does have on equipment, ethanol in the fuel has the ability to cleanse the internal engine parts of lubricating oil, which they get from the mixed gas, and can cause insufficient lubrication failures. In fact one manufacturer suggest using 92 octane or higher, non-oxygenated, non-ethanol fuel to maintain engine life and not void manufacturer warranty.
I feel so strongly against switching to pump gas, not because I have an unlimited budget, and not because I want to pad the pockets of VP. I am against this because I know what this has the capability to do to these engines from a performance and engine longetivity standpoint. I don't have the budget for a midseason rebuild because of what it seems so far to be one persons interest in saving a few dollars.
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2013-10-22 5:14 PM (#16973 - in reply to #16972)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
500100252525
Location: phoenix, az
The business of operating the club is the responsibility of the BOD, which as members we elect. Which is why not everything is brought to a public (membership) vote. I am the president of another board and it operates in the same manner. Not sure if it's just me, Aaron, and Allen that like this idea a lot of people do not speak up on here for many reasons. Did WF come off of pump gas? if so what were the reasons? I dont disagree that it can wreck havok when sitting idle in your tank or carb. Running my carb dry at the end of the day and empty out my fuel tank are small concessions in my opinion for the huge savings.
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Bryan Casebolt
Posted 2013-10-22 6:15 PM (#16974 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


Past PKRA President; PKRA Champion

Posts: 897
500100100100252525
I am not sure but I don't think that anyone in World Formula is running pump gas anymore, there were to many carburetor problems. Yes the Rotax motor may be different. I have no idea.

Please keep in mind that the Bondurant Rotax Max Challenge race series is owned by and regulated by Alan Rudolph and Bondurant School. PKRA is contracted to include the BRMC classes on race day but they are a separate program from the PKRA classes. These issues are decided by Alan.

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Curtis Ruth
Posted 2013-10-22 8:44 PM (#16975 - in reply to #16974)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



PKRA Champion

Posts: 1070
10002525
Location: Glendale,AZ
The world formula guys have been allowed both vp ms98 or pump gas from the pinnacle peak chevron for the last year. Many of the guys that went to pump fuel for the idea of savings noticed that there was a process to being able to use it, that outweighed the cost of just using race fuels.

With the use of pump gas they found that it deteriorated their tanks when left in the kart and caused the carb jets to be clogged in a matter of 4 to 5 days making it neccessary to remove and clean the carb and its' jets every time it is run.
I leave vp 98 fuel in my world formula for months without clogging and fuel system maintainance needed. Just store and go.

I have been around karting for over 20 years and have observed that whether they mean to or not, kart owners have short term focus and just put the kart away until it is time to run again and do not drain and prep the carb for the next time out.

Why make it difficult?



Edited by Curtis Ruth 2013-10-22 9:01 PM
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2013-10-22 9:30 PM (#16976 - in reply to #16974)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
500100252525
Location: phoenix, az
Bryan Casebolt - 2013-10-22 6:15 PM

I am not sure but I don't think that anyone in World Formula is running pump gas anymore, there were to many carburetor problems. Yes the Rotax motor may be different. I have no idea.

Please keep in mind that the Bondurant Rotax Max Challenge race series is owned by and regulated by Alan Rudolph and Bondurant School. PKRA is contracted to include the BRMC classes on race day but they are a separate program from the PKRA classes. These issues are decided by Alan.



Bryan this is a great point that I always overlook because they run at the same time as PKRA. But your right BRMC is it own series outside of the club that just happens to run their races at the same time PKRA runs its races. Just like we cant tell Gatorz or SKUSA how to run their series we cant do the same to Alan. I think it's great that he's getting input though.

I'm curious to know if any WF guys are still running pump on race day. As a racer running for points if I knew my competitors were running 98 then I would do the same. Weather there is or not there is a perceived advantage 98 over 91. If race day was just another fun day then pump gas all the way, but that's just me.

Love the pic by the way Curtis I see "The Surgeon" on pole (thats what I call him) and I notice the windex in his fuel tank. I would already feel pressured to run VP because he was to stay at his pace.

Edited by Veerachart Murphy 2013-10-22 9:51 PM
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Curtis Ruth
Posted 2013-10-28 12:22 PM (#16985 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season



PKRA Champion

Posts: 1070
10002525
Location: Glendale,AZ
A good article concerning this topic.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/battle-lines-being-drawn-over-etha...
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george yandell
Posted 2013-10-28 7:03 PM (#16988 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season




Posts: 10
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That is a great article Curtis, I'm trying to find electronic versions of literature that supports the claim of ethanol being bad on 2-cycle engines. I did see the owners manual that comes with the WF engines from Briggs clearly states " these engines were designed to run on 98 octane fuel and no lower than 93 octane fuel should be used" due to the possibility of engine damage due to detonation of using lower octane fuels. Fact of the matter is, 2-cycle engines get their lube from the oil mixed with the fuel, ethanol washes away the lube from critical components needing that lube. Mix oil also blends better with non oxygenated fuel (like VP) than pump gas.
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2013-11-04 4:28 PM (#17024 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
Upon further review and input from racers, Alan has decided to keep the course and continue to run VP93 for our races.

With that said, I myself will continue to practice using pump fuel, and racing with VP93, so that is an option for racers who are looking to save a little money. Just be sure to not leave the gas in your carb when you are done practicing, you need to drain the carb.
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Mark Traylor
Posted 2013-11-13 12:17 PM (#17044 - in reply to #16802)
Subject: Re: BRMC Using Pump Gas for Winter Season




Posts: 14
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I have personally used 100LL Avgas. It is readily available, cheap, has no ethanol. It is the most consistent fuel you can get anywhere. It is a little lighter than race gas or pump gas so typically you would jet it a little richer but I have not had any issue with going back and forth.

We burn more gas practicing than racing so you can still save money there.
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