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Craig Logsdon
Posted 2012-04-05 5:59 PM (#14672)
Subject: Cadet Classes




Posts: 14
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On the kid kart forum, there's a discussion about a transition class after kid karts.

I think a transition class is a great idea because (a) it's safer; (b) it's valuable for driver development; and (c) it will hopefully convince more people to stick around after they grow out of kid karts. I wonder if one of the reasons more kid karters don't stick around is that some of them perceive the jump to the next class as a big hurdle. A slower, lighter class might help.

On the other hand, I know there are people who are concerned that we're adding another class.

I would encourage the club to make a decision on (a) whether we're going to have a transition class; and, if so (b) what that class will be. There are pros and cons of Rookie Comer and Rotax, but I'd prefer we make a decision and go with it, as opposed to seeing who shows up with what on race day.

One thing we should consider is what we want the cadet class (currently Rookie Sportsman) to be in the long term. We need to think down the road when we're deciding what the transition class should be. For example, if the transition class is micromax, we risk losing the club cadet class to the Rotax series.

I'm in favor of gearing the cadet class to KPV1. I know seven drivers who are currently in the class or will be soon who prefer to run KPV1 instead of Yamaha, so we can take our stuff to other tracks without having to purchase new equipment, and attract drivers from those tracks to our club.

Hopefully, all of the stakeholders can get together and work with the club make a decision, so please chime in if you're planning to run in these classes soon.
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Ryan Ruth
Posted 2012-04-05 8:17 PM (#14675 - in reply to #14672)
Subject: RE: Cadet Classes




Posts: 38
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My son Tyler and Sebastean Davis have Rookie comer karts and plan to run them this season after a bit more practice.. These engines are inexpensive and easy to run..The Rotax is a great package but a bit expensive for me right now. I also like the KPV 1 Idea instead of yamaha..This eliminates the clutch maintence needed on the yamaha..
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2012-04-06 6:57 AM (#14676 - in reply to #14675)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
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Location: phoenix, az
The club as far as I know does not interfere with motor selection. just the rules governing them. I'm pretty sure we've always been a "run what you brung" track but these things seem to weed themselves out. And just because a class is hot this year doesn't mean it will be next year. We've seen this with Tag Jr/SR. Tag Jr. went to KPV2 but now most KPV2's are going Rotax. The numbers we are getting in Rotax Sr. is what we used to see in Tag Sr. Bernie's been trying to get World Formula going for quite some time now, and only at the last few races that numbers were good people are noticing now and wanting to join. If you don't want to be running in a class with 1 or 2 people, I think the dads and moms should get together and work this out. Your going to have differances but at least you know where you stand before you buy that next motor.
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Cliff Kujala
Posted 2012-04-09 8:01 AM (#14701 - in reply to #14672)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes



PKRA Vice President; PKRA Champion

Posts: 98
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Sweet Ryan. Glad to see you guys choosing the more economical class which should help our club rebuild and add new young racers to the sport.
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2012-04-09 9:21 AM (#14703 - in reply to #14701)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
I posted this in the rotax link, but I wanted to post it here also. In the other post, Cliff posted that the cost for the Micro-max was about $8000, the following is my response to those costs.

The costs you have listed, the majority of them are the same for a new karter whether you choose comer 80 or micro-max.

We all paid $2901 for the Micro-Max motors with sales tax, and a set of tires. As a side note, as long as we keep running Rotax, we will use this motor for all the classes as Diego ages buy buying upgrade kits.

From Pitts Performance, a new blueprinted comer 80 is $2250, and you still have to buy a new set of MGs, thats $220, so apples to apples is $2901 vs $2470, the Rotax motor comes with a 6 month warranty and an estimated rebuild of 50 hours (I know you will call BS on that, but I guarantee you the comer 80 motor has no warranty for 6 months, and will NOT last 50 hours either, and rebuilt cost on that motor will be probably minimum $1000 bucks to make it competative again, probably more like $1500). Then you go to the yamaha class next, and to get a competative motor in that class, your dropping $2500 on a motor.

My experience so far with the comer motors is as follows: in 3 months of karting, I have 3 comer motors, 2 comer 50s and a comer 80. I have had my first comer 50 rebuilt twice, first time it cost $800 bucks then it broke a piston ring, rebuilt a second time $600 bucks, I bought a second motor from Pitts for $1200 bucks and it did not run, I paid $120 in shipping between here and California in 3 months and it still did not run. I paid another kart shop $400 to replace the ignition and the crank seals (all for a brand new motor!! yes, crank seals, long story), it runs now but Im into that motor now for $1720. I just bought $600 worth of parts to to rebuild my comer 80 motor (and it will be slow as hell as its not BLUEPRINTED, but who cares, i just need it to go in circles for my daughter).

You can't argue that you can go get a used comer 80 for half that price because then we are comparing apples to oranges. If you want to argue used prices to used prices, I can buy a used Micro-Max off ekartingnews.com forums for $1500 (there is actually a used mini max for $900 with 20 hours on it, then you pay $375 for the downgrade kit and your at $1275), a used comer 80 is $1000 to $1500.

The cost of a new cadet chassis is the same for each motor. I know 3 of us did not buy new chassis, we found 3 2012 barely used arrow chassis in Florida from a dealer for half price, $1500 bucks each. I know that does not make the local kart shops happy that we did not buy new chassis from them, but it is what it is, we all do what we can to make it as economical as we can, thats reality.

No matter which way you spin it, there is no such thing as "The Economical" class in karting, it does not exist, they are all expensive, even kid karts. I think its fine if people choose Comer 80 over Micro Max, there is nothing to say if we can we won't race that class in the future also, but to state that one class is "Economical" over another class showing the pricing as being drastically different, which is what you are trying to do above, I think is a little misleading. Is it cheaper to race comer 80 vs micro-max? Maybe, maybe not, there are a lot of variables.
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Cliff Kujala
Posted 2012-04-10 11:00 AM (#14710 - in reply to #14672)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes



PKRA Vice President; PKRA Champion

Posts: 98
252525
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Just because Pitts charges $2250 for a K80 doesn't mean that you need a motor from them. P1 Engines - $1650 blueprinted. Flemming - $1600 blueprinted. TMW (local) not sure but I'm sure it is not nearly $2250. And $2500 to get a competitive Yamaha KT-100 is crazy. Yes, some who have the means might decide to spend that, but they don't need too.

Rotax is a big heavy engine, never originally intended to be mounted on a Cadet chassis. Bottom line.

Maybe we should bring FIK60 into the discussion too. That is a purpose built class structure, open to multiple manufactures, and has rulesets in place for both Kid Kart, and Cadet Age groups. Same engine for both age categories, just different carb/exhaust.

Aaron, have you found a club in the USA which has regular MicroMAX entries above 10 karts?
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Craig Logsdon
Posted 2012-04-10 7:10 PM (#14719 - in reply to #14710)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes




Posts: 14
0
I'll leave the technical discussion to Cliff and others.

I think we're talking about a "transition" class...something to let seven year olds get out of their kid karts, and get some confidence before racing Rookies Sportsman or KPV1.

I'm in favor of the most economical way to let my kid Jude run a few races in a cadet class, and then I'm going to move him up to run with the faster cadet class as soon as he's ready. I don't think anyone should be dropping big bucks on an engine for a transition class, whether it's a Comer or something else.

For the experienced cadet drivers, I think KPV1 is the way to go. That's the long-term class we should be pushing. If we were running a KPV1 class, it would be a lot easier to draw kids from other locations. This weekend is a perfect example. Most kids running SKUSA have KPV engines, but not Yamahas, so it's more difficult to attract them to the club.

Unless we want to make a complete switch to Rotax for the cadet-aged kids, I don't know why we'd want to put seven year olds in micro max engines. But I'm open minded and willing to listen.

I think the important thing is that those of us who are going to have kids in this class for the next several years develop a long-term plan, so we know what to expect each season.
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2012-04-11 9:00 AM (#14722 - in reply to #14719)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
Cliff, you guys def have your opinions on Rotax, I'm not stating we will agree to disagree because I'm not even saying I disagree with some of your arguments, but a group of us have agreed to try it for ourselves and in doing so we will form our own opinions based on personal experience. The initial upfront cost to buy the rotax motor is greater (but also look at the difference in what you are getting) my personal hope is the long term operational costs are not, atleast at the local level, again only time will tell and our personal experience. Also, as far as Micro max and grid size, we are looking at micro max as a starting point to hopefully continue into mini-max and then junior max which does have large grid sizes at the regional and national level (again, assuming we are happy with Rotax and continue with that series, only time and experience will tell for us).

As far as club/IKF racing and motors, its hard for me to give much of an opinion as we have not raced in that class. In looking at new engine prices, the yamaha does appear cheaper than the kpv motors, but I hear there are clutch issues with the yamaha that the KPVs don't have that may provide lower operational costs? I think at this point in time with the current group of kids racing the cadet class, most of them have made the investment to race the yamahas and to go back to KPV1 at this point in time does not seem economical. The ROK motor you have talked about Clif before and I see they are running that motor at the SKUSA series this month, but again, buying new motors from what people already have costs money. It appears that the majority of people have made investments in both Comer 80 and with the yamahas.

Edited by Aaron LaRoque 2012-04-11 9:39 AM
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Ted Tucholski
Posted 2012-04-11 3:58 PM (#14724 - in reply to #14722)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes


PKRA Member

Posts: 249
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The TMW Comer 80 Blueprinted is $1550. The Rookie Sportsman Yamaha Blueprinted is $1350. I would suggest that the Yamaha package be included with the Rookie Comer class. Take the pipe off of the Yamaha and put a 3 hole can on it. You can't just tell the Yamaha owners to go away in the Cadet class. The Yamaha engine can also be used for a great transition class if you dumb it down. So lets start with the 3 hole can and lose the pipe , then after that if it still out performs the Comer 80 lets put the W3ba carb and a .600 restrictor plate. That is how the Yamaha and Comer competed with eachother back in the day. Also I have a monster KPV 1 motor NEW pulling 12hp on the dyno if that class starts up again.

Edited by Ted Tucholski 2012-04-11 7:55 PM
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Stewart Willis
Posted 2012-04-11 8:27 PM (#14729 - in reply to #14724)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes





Posts: 437
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Location: Anthem, AZ
Ted,
The Pipe definitely killed the Yamaha. I like your idea. Obviously they will have to run this class together. If there are micromax, Rookie Comer and Yamaha 3 hole karts out there they would have to be all put together. 10 lap mains are honestly a waste of entry money.
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Veerachart Murphy
Posted 2012-04-12 7:17 AM (#14736 - in reply to #14722)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes



Past PKRA Board Member

Posts: 680
500100252525
Location: phoenix, az
Aaron LaRoque - 2012-04-11 9:00 AM


As far as club/IKF racing and motors, its hard for me to give much of an opinion as we have not raced in that class.


We have raced in R7 before so I do have an opinion about it. I would tell you to run what you want to run, and not because a region or a club tries to dictate to you what they want you to run. Which in my opinion why I think R7 has gone down hill with the politics surrounding the PRD. Very long story Aaron. But to us IKF R7 is the like the Grand Canyon or the Bahamas. You should go if you've never been, but now that we've gone we really don't care to go back. Been there....seen it ! (yes I know we are and IKF affiliated track, really talking more to R7)

Now I'm not saying there are no politics at our track going on, the fact is you can't get away from it, it's everywhere and in every business, club, orginization, government, ect.... I think the differance between R7 and PKRA is that R7 is financially motivated and maybe rightfully so, I know I am financially motivated. But you have to think decisions are based on this idea, great for business but not necassarilly good for karting. Where I believe PKRA is member motivated, that is trying to get more members to the club and keeping the ones it has. Why else would the club spend $30k+ to repave the track and take out the "ski jump" everyone was complaining about. BTW I kinda miss the ski jump.

The best thing you can do Aaron is what you've already done talk to a few moms and dads in your class and come to an agreement so that you're not running out there alone. That's what I did before making the jump to Rotax I knew a few other dads were going that route so we did as well. Again I can not stress to you how happy we are with our Rotax I know you guys will love it too. We sold our "IKF" motor (KPV) awhile ago for the Rotax motor. And if PKRA's back straight was just slightly shorter we would run the Rotax in the Tag class also.

Edited by Veerachart Murphy 2012-04-12 7:22 AM
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Stewart Willis
Posted 2012-04-12 8:00 AM (#14738 - in reply to #14736)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes





Posts: 437
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Location: Anthem, AZ

Veerachart Murphy - 2012-04-12 7:17 AM  Which in my opinion why I think R7 has gone down hill with the politics surrounding the PRD. Very long story Aaron. But to us IKF R7 is the like the Grand Canyon or the Bahamas. You should go if you've never been, but now that we've gone we really don't care to go back. Been there....seen it ! (yes I know we are and IKF affiliated track, really talking more to R7)........... I think the differance between R7 and PKRA is that R7 is financially motivated and maybe rightfully so, I know I am financially motivated. But you have to think decisions are based on this idea, great for business but not necassarilly good for karting. Where I believe PKRA is member motivated, that is trying to get more members to the club and keeping the ones it has. Why else would the club spend $30k+ to repave the track and take out the "ski jump" everyone was complaining about. .

 

Murphy,

You know that I am the IKF Regional Coordinator.  I understand that this criticism is directed at me.  So, I will respond to your claims.    

When you say "R7 is financially motivated....decisions are based on this idea, great for business but not necassarilly [sic] great for karting.  Where I believe PKRA is member motivated, trying to get more memers to the club and keeping the ones it has...."

It is my opinion that you do not understand the facts surrounding the business of karting. I make all region 7 decisions.  I choose the classes.  I choose the order... etc.    I make no money doing this.  I still paid to race at Adams for Round 1, despite putting 150 hours into putting on the race.  Where is this financial motivation?  My job is to keep  karting alive and thriving in R7.  I have three customers: The Karter first.  The tracks and shops second.   90% of the profit from a region 7 race is directly returned to the (host) club or track. Only 10% of the net remains with the region so that we have seed money for 2013.

The big questions:

1.) How many drivers JOINED PKRA because of Bondurant or Rotax????   Answer this please.

2.) How many drivers are no longer racing because of them???

 ** In chess we call this a Checkmate

You understand that the Rotax program at PKRA, as it is designed now is parasitic.  It is my belief that the club is handing the keys to the front door away.   What is the rotax program doing to grow the sport for PKRA??  Where is this tire money from the "PKRA Branded" tires going?    I hope it is being used to market the Club program to new prospective members, rather than to  a few select people's pockets.    I hope that a portion of  the huge margins on all of the new engines that are being sold locally are going in to a fund to grow the sport....  But, its my guess that this is not happening to any significant degree.   All that is happening is that shops are churning sales moving people from Tag Jr. to KPV, to shifter, to Rotax...  and the cycle will continue to the detriment of the club until there is nobody left.

I have no problem with a stand alone Rotax program.  But, it should be Stand alone, not sucking the life blood out of PKRA FOR FREE!!  I know that there are members of the Board that see this happening.  Hopefully, they make the tough decisions necessary to keep the club viable.  

 



Edited by Stewart Willis 2012-04-12 8:46 AM
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Aaron LaRoque
Posted 2012-04-12 8:54 AM (#14741 - in reply to #14738)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes


PKRA Secretary / Points

Posts: 147
10025
And here I thought we were talking about the merits of the motor and whether or not it was a good motor or not, but I can see its not about the motor at all. None of the entry fees paid to race in the Rotax class goes to the club? If that is the case, I don't know the whole story behind that and why that is, if somebody can explain it that would be helpful.

I can see your point stewart, and yes, Rotax is taking away from the existing established club classes that run PKRA. But, I can also state as a club member, that I have payed $990 to the club this year in member dues and pit space rental fee. How am I any different than the majority of people in this club who pay their membership fees and do not even race, they just own a kart and come out to drive to have fun on Tuesday nights? Are they destroying the club because they do not race? I would think that the majority if not all of the people in this club who have chosen to race the rotax motor are club members and support the club in that way.

You have stated several times in other posts that there are tough decisions to be made and solutions to this issue as you see it. I would like you to eleborate on that. I am drawing conclusions here, but are you advocating that the club should not support Rotax and people choosing to race that program should exit the club stage left? How is that good for the club?

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Randy Lyon
Posted 2012-04-12 12:45 PM (#14758 - in reply to #14672)
Subject: RE: Cadet Classes





Posts: 1381
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This thread was temporarily frozen while I split it into two threads. It had gone far off the original topic.

Keep this discussion on the subject of cadet kart classes for PKRA.

For those looking for the posts that hijacked this thread, that discussion is continued here: http://pkra.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3793

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Craig Logsdon
Posted 2012-05-17 9:29 PM (#14973 - in reply to #14672)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes




Posts: 14
0
More notes on the cadet classes.

During the past few weeks I have spoken with several parents regarding the direction the cadet classes are going. Based on what I have learned on the forum and by speaking with parents, I think the following is accurate:
- Most of the older cadet drivers prefer to race KPV over Rookie Sportsman or Rotax.
- The younger kids who moving into cadets are split. Several have already purchased mini-max engines and, as Aaron has pointed out, are very committed to Rotax. Several others have found Comers to run as a “transition” class before driving a KPV or Rookie Sportsman.
- At most, only three drivers will have run a full season (allowing for one DNE) during Spring 2012. It’s unclear if we’ll be able to field a full class in the future.

If anyone has additional information, please let me know. I’m gathering this information so we can make an intelligent decision on how to best plan for the future of this class.

I would propose that we have this topic on the agenda at the June club meeting and invite all interested parties to attend.

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Curtis Ruth
Posted 2013-06-23 4:33 PM (#16611 - in reply to #14672)
Subject: Re: Cadet Classes



PKRA Champion

Posts: 1069
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Location: Glendale,AZ
Very simple Briggs & Stratton solution with the LO 206 motor. About $850 for all parts needed to put on the kart. 4 cycle, Pull start, pump gas, bulletproof clutch, super low maintainance, very easy to tune with superb performance.

It is Stupid proof.

Don't knock it til you try it.

 photo 20130424_105606_zpse7d3620b.jpg
 photo 20130615_090618_zps83b12505.jpg


Edited by Curtis Ruth 2013-06-23 4:42 PM
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