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PKRA Champion; Forum Moderator
Posts: 194
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ |
It looks like the weekday practice traffic has increased since the track re-opened two months ago. This has raised a concern for me (and others I spoke to) about the large & often dangerous speed differential between the fast drivers and the slower ones. During last week's Wednesday and Friday evening practice the evening was divided in 15 minutes brackets of:
* kid karts
* junior karts
* others
While I like the theoretical trade-off of having less time but supposedly better quality (less slow traffic), I noticed on both evenings that there is still a lot of slow traffic in the 'others' bracket, including some junior karts and some drivers that are clearly still in the beginner category. This makes proper practice almost impossible since:
* it is hard to get even 1-2 clear laps in in these 15 minutes due to the traffic
* more often than not making a quick set-up change means running out of time in the current session and needing to wait another 30 minutes before you can get back on the track again
To provide some examples of issues experienced in the 'others' category: people drinking and driving their karts; people weaving their kart across the full width of the track in order to 'warm up their tires just like in F1' (in the middle of a practice session!); and groups of slow drivers/beginners racing each other with no regard for faster traffic coming from behind.
My point here is that:
1. I do not think that breaking up in kid/junior/other categories does work at the moment
2. Beginner evening and on-track behavior policies could be enforced more strictly
3. Absent such stricter enforcement it is better to have only kids practice separately
4. Maybe the weekday evening practice should be broken up differently (like dedicated evenings or half-evenings for speed-comparable classes)
5. Due to driver-ego's no drivers considers themselves beginners. Maybe the beginner policy could be changed such that beginners are only allowed to practice on other evenings once they graduate from the beginner evening by showing good/safe lap times.
I know my ideas are far from perfect but I am a bit disappointed with the quality of practice lately. And since the track-rental is very expensive (even to members), practice evenings is really all there is to members to improve their driving/set-up in preparation for races.
Now I am done sharing my thoughts, I am curious what other members feel about this...
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"Larry"; PKRA Champion
Posts: 547
Location: Glendale | i agree on the speed differential between drivers on practice nights being large like it is...makes it very difficult to practice. .. i have not participated it evening practice as of late ..and this is one of the reasons. i never can seem to get any consecutive clean laps in, so practice(for me anyways) seems not to produce any results..that i am looking for. and i have felt on more then one occasion that it was becoming unsafe(the difference in speed of drivers on track at the same time). not sure on what to do abut it either.... but i am voicing my opinion. |
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PKRA Forum Admin
Posts: 1125
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona | Christiaan Bouhuys - 2010-05-23 6:26 PM To provide some examples of issues experienced in the 'others' (adult ) category: people drinking and driving their karts; people weaving their kart across the full width of the track in order to 'warm up their tires just like in F1' (in the middle of a practice session! ); and groups of slow drivers/beginners racing each other with no regard for faster traffic coming from behind. Christiaan, while your other suggestions are being discussed, violations of existing rules are not subject to debate. I am guessing there is typically just one track official at practice and he/she can't see everything and is also busy doing other things like signing people in. Just being more vigilant will help a lot. And maybe we could have an official observer for a few nights to see just how bad the problem is. Do you have any ideas for better enforcement with existing staff levels? Ending a few rule breakers night early would probably go a long way.
I hope "drinking and driving" refers to water but I have a sick feeling it may not. If that's happening, I'd support buying a Breathalyzer and making it part of sign in! I may be mistaken, but I think our rule is NO alcohol in the system, not street driving limits. |
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PKRA Forum Admin
Posts: 1125
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona | Chris Fosso - 2010-05-23 6:49 PM
i agree on the speed differential between drivers on practice nights being large like it is...makes it very difficult to practice. .. i have not participated it evening practice as of late ..and this is one of the reasons. i never can seem to get any consecutive clean laps in, so practice(for me anyways) seems not to produce any results..
You don't need clean laps to get any benefit. In fact many people hurt their progress by focusing on lap times when they would be far better served by focusing on one corner or series of connected corners at a time. If there is another kart at the same corner at the same time, you are only impacted whatever percent of the time that is. And you can control your gaps by slowing down a bit on the straight 2 corners back.
that i am looking for. and i have felt on more then one occasion that it was becoming unsafe (the difference in speed of drivers on track at the same time). not sure on what to do abut it either.... but i am voicing my opinion.
The first thing to do is to improve enforcement of the rules if they are being violated. The speed difference is only a safety issue if people disobey the rules. Sure you will never have 100% compliance but that's an accepted risk for which the only cure is private track rental.
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PKRA Member
Posts: 213
| Funny that Mr. Bouhuys is complaining about practice nights, his very agressive driving and impatience with the slower karts is what has lead to "splitting up" the cadets and faster karts. I have personally witnessed his passing of multiple slower karts (up to 3) in non traditional passing zones forcing the slower karts off the track, sideswiping them or causing them to make evasive moves to avoid a wreck. Several parents have mentioned this to him and asked him to calm down.
Unfortunately, Mr. Bouhuys does not seem to respect his peers on the track, even the other shifter karts. If he disputes my assessment, I am sure the GoPro camera footage of his actions could be posted. In closing, I'd also like to report Mr. Bouhuys routinely carries San Pellegrino in what appears to be green GLASS bottles around the track; last I knew glass bottles were prohibited at PKRA.
Edited by Bill Cary 2010-05-23 11:01 PM
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PKRA Champion; Forum Moderator
Posts: 194
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Bill Cary - 2010-05-23 10:56 PM
Funny that Mr. Bouhuys is complaining about practice nights, his very agressive driving and impatience with the slower karts is what has lead to "splitting up" the cadets and faster karts. I have personally witnessed his passing of multiple slower karts (up to 3) in non traditional passing zones forcing the slower karts off the track, sideswiping them or causing them to make evasive moves to avoid a wreck. Several parents have mentioned this to him and asked him to calm down.
Unfortunately, Mr. Bouhuys does not seem to respect his peers on the track, even the other shifter karts. If he disputes my assessment, I am sure the GoPro camera footage of his actions could be posted. In closing, I'd also like to report Mr. Bouhuys routinely carries San Pellegrino in what appears to be green GLASS bottles around the track; last I knew glass bottles were prohibited at PKRA.
Mr. Cary is obviously seeing things that I don't. Go Pro footage would be appreciated if it could also show (rear facing) how I announce my presence (many turns before) and how the eventual pass was made. I have encountered many times drivers that are completely ignorant to faster traffic from behind; drivers that try to block my passing, as well as drivers that cut into me after I make a clean pass.
While we are on the topic of perception vs. actual facts: the San Pellegrino I take to the track is in plastic 1.0l bottles (2 for $3.00 at Safeway).
Edited by Christiaan Bouhuys 2010-05-24 3:48 AM
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"Larry"; PKRA Champion
Posts: 547
Location: Glendale | ... um ... i think the post made (from christiaan)about slower and faster karts.... .and safety on the track was made was to try and fix the problem>? not to attack anyone personally >? i think the response made was uncalled for (by mr. cary) ..i think he (mr. cary) may have an issue with christiaan ,,and it should be addressed elsewhere. . i too have witnessed the same concerns he(christiaan) ,was posting about/bringing up.. and actually was trying to fix by making his post. part of the problem may be...until you have been i a kart like a shifter at speed yourself....you have no idea of the concerns brought up when coming up on a slower kart... food for thought |
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PKRA Champion; Forum Moderator
Posts: 194
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Hi Randy,
I am not sure how better enforcement of on-track behavior would work with existing staff levels; the volunteers are already putting a lot of time and effort in. The only practical solution maybe to have better selection at the gate (e.g. beginner/rookie drivers need to be cleared by graduating from Tuesday evening beginner practice). I think making changes to the current practice set-up will be difficult; I just know that last week's break-up in groups did not work for the 'others' category. Just to give an example: there were certain drivers on both Wednesday and Friday nights that I lapped every couple (2,3,4) of laps. This just means they are way off the pace. Combined with other traffic it means it is almost impossible to put more than 1-2 clean laps in. In addition to being inconvenient, the speed differential on practice nights is also dangerous. We all make mistakes on the track and the likelihood of a nasty outcome becomes higher as the speed differential becomes larger.
On the drinking and (then) driving: I have provided Bill Wuestenhoefer with more information on this. I fully support coming down hard on those that drink and drive at our track.
Edited by Christiaan Bouhuys 2010-05-24 12:11 PM
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PKRA Champion
Posts: 84
| I try my best to make sure we don't have beginner drivers on nights when practice is crucial for all the racers (ex: friday nights before races). I usually share stories with those beginners that show up about dangerous scenarios that have occured in the past and usually, most of the time, they pack and leave. Other times it's a simple 'no'. But let me know if any of you guys see anything and i'll do my best to accomadate the situation. I agree that beginners on other nights is dangerous and i'll do my best to keep them on tuesday nights. I just hope that some would wake up and realize the danger that their putting themselves in and use "common sense" (a very crucial key in racing) |
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Posts: 294
Location: Anthem, AZ | I like the fact that classes share time equally. I am the one always complaining that we dont get enough practice time. Heck, if kid karts got equal time I would be in heaven.
The night in question that Mr. Cary is speaking about did result in several parents getting upset at what they saw out on the track. One of the parents even commented something along the lines of "If that guy wrecks my son, Im gonna.........." Well, you get the point. The speed differential was tremendous and those karts should not have been out together, period. When I am out on the track and I approach one of the cadets (back when I had a much faster kart) I would be especially cautious around the little ones, not because I thought that I would make contact. But, because I can empathize for the parents watching. It just looks really bad when a full size kart is passing the juniors . It scares the hell out of us parents.
There are several tracks in so cal that do not separate classes during practice... and it freaks me out when a shifter makes an unwise pass on my son. Usually I will just pull him off the track until it is clear. But, sometimes I lose my temper and gesture to the shifter for the clear lack of concern for the safety of my kid..
Sometimes the view from the driver seat is much different than it is from the bleachers. I dont think that there was any bad intentions when these things happened. I am sure that Christiaan saw what he was doing as safe. Hopefully, we can learn from this and move on.
Maybe we have monday nights for shifters only and the rest of the nights allow kid karts equal time the rest of the nights  |
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PKRA Board Member Emeritus
Posts: 421
| There was a suggestion a couple of years back that we divide practice session into equal groups, along the lines of kid karts, novice, junior, senior, shifter.
Part of that plan was to use the traffic lights to control when people entered and left the track. The lights were never completely installed, and the plan fell by the wayside. Do you folks think that splitting into more groups, and enforcing control of it would solve your problems?
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PKRA Champion; Forum Moderator
Posts: 194
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Barry, I think splitting into groups only works if the groups are speed comparable. E.g. some slower seniors may be well suited to run with the juniors. Some slower shifters could well run with the TAGs. So breaking up in more groups will only work if they are truly homogeneous speed-wise and I think this will be very hard to do in reality.
Getting the novice drivers (those 10+ seconds off the pace) to drive on Tuesday's only (until they improve) would be a big step forward. I think a rule that states that any novice drivers need to graduate (approved by Rich Bowen) before being allowed to practice on the other nights may give us a lot improvement and be relatively easy to enforce.
Edited by Christiaan Bouhuys 2010-05-27 11:24 AM
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PKRA Champion
Posts: 50
| Christiaan Bouhuys - 2010-05-27 11:21 AM Barry, I think splitting into groups only works if the groups are speed comparable. E.g. some slower seniors may be well suited to run with the juniors. Some slower shifters could well run with the TAGs. So breaking up in more groups will only work if they are truly homogeneous speed-wise and I think this will be very hard to do in reality. I don't think Barry was suggesting splitting up by class, but by speed differential as you suggested. My understanding is that the track worker has the power to split practice up into an extra group if there is a concern. It is not hard for a track worker to identify someone who is 10+ seconds slower; the hard part is for the track worker to manage rotating groups while maintaining all of their other responsibilities. It involves keeping a close eye on the clock, letting people know what the groups are, and additional flagging at the end of each session. That is not to say it cannot be done. A process could be developed to make it be minimal extra effort for the track worker. Christiaan Bouhuys - 2010-05-27 11:21 AM Getting the novice drivers (those 10+ seconds off the pace) to drive on Tuesday's only (until they improve) would be a big step forward. I think a rule that states that any novice drivers need to graduate (approved by Rich Bowen) before being allowed to practice on the other nights may give us a lot improvement and be relatively easy to enforce. As the previous training director, I am aware of varying positions on controlling when new drivers practice. Your suggestion would alleviate the traffic problem, but has other undesirable consequences. First, many people can't come out on Tuesday. Getting someone to come out once to be race approved is more feasible than forcing someone to do all of their practice on Tuesday. Also, novice drivers are paying just as much as the others, the question that will come up is why should they pay just as much for MUCH less practice options, even much less than kid karts who can come out on any day. This is not conducive for building the membership. Also, if this rule is created, it will not be enforced on slow days when the novice driver is the only one at the track; you run into the challenge of explaining to people why it is enforced on some days but not on others. I think it is a good idea for anyone who is new to practice on Tuesdays, if they can, for their own learning and to avoid incidents. These things can help build membership. In my opinion though, using Tuesdays for segregation would not be a positive thing overall.
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PKRA Board Member Emeritus
Posts: 421
| Joshua Lyon - 2010-05-30 9:32 AM
I don't think Barry was suggesting splitting up by class, but by speed differential as you suggested. My understanding is that the track worker has the power to split practice up into an extra group if there is a concern. It is not hard for a track worker to identify someone who is 10+ seconds slower; the hard part is for the track worker to manage rotating groups while maintaining all of their other responsibilities. It involves keeping a close eye on the clock, letting people know what the groups are, and additional flagging at the end of each session. That is not to say it cannot be done. A process could be developed to make it be minimal extra effort for the track worker.
Josh, I recognize the difficulty of the track manager to keep track of the rotating groups. To that end, a year or so ago, I proposed an automatic controller, which would keep track of the timing of all groups. I presented it to the board at that time who thought it was a good idea. I have since designed it and completed contruction of 75% of it. It does require the traffic lights to be operational, so that the drivers of each group know when to enter and leave the track. I haven't done any work on the project for about 6 months, for two reasons: a) I got really busy with other stuff, and b) it seemed like the traffic light wiring was never going to get done. Bill W has just told me the wiring is strung for the lights, so that is no longer an issue. I do need to feel though that if I complete the project (which will take me several months of work) that it is what the club still wants. If the people practicing do not want to be split into distinct groups, there is no point in organizing practice that way. That is what prompted my original question.
cheers
Barry |
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PKRA Champion; Forum Moderator
Posts: 194
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Joshua, I cannot disagree with you. The most practical solution would indeed be if the track worker splits up the practice into an extra group if there is a concern about the speed differential. As long as such extra group if based on lap times and not kart class (e.g. juniors) it will do the job without making things too complicated. The main reason for starting this topic was not in disagreement with splitting up in extra groups, but having a lot of really slow drivers still in the 'others' group. To the fast drivers this meant having a lot less track time without any improvement in quality... |
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Weekday training
